GRAND WALKS Episode 1: A Walk Through Wortley with Emma Donoghue

Daniel Bennett

[ethereal background music]

Hi! I’m Daniel Bennett and welcome to the Grand Walks. I work as the Technical Director at the Grand managing the backstage crew to bring magic to our stage. Since the pandemic is preventing us from making theatre, I am focusing the spotlight out into the community to learn more about some London locals, their favourite places and what makes them ‘London Proud.’

By now, hopefully you are standing at the starting place of the walk which is the west end of Beaconsfield Ave. on the pedestrian path that leads to Horton and Wharncliffe, have downloaded the audio and have looked at the map to know what route we are going to walk together today. Listen for me giving location markers throughout the walk. If you get behind where we are, feel free to give us a pause – I swear we will not be offended. If you get ahead, please slow down a bit until we catch up. At the corner of Beasonfield and Wortley, we will stop for a quick moment to admire the view. I’ll let you know when it is time to get those feet walking again.

Today, we are walking with award winning writer Emma Donoghue. She is best known for her fiction with titles such as Room and The Wonder but also writes for film and stage. Before we get started, I would like to pass it over to Lacie George, Costumer at the Grand to start us off with a Land Acknowledgment. When you hear Emma’s voice, it’s time to start the walk!
 

Lacie George

[nature sounds]

Waase’aabinokwe N’dizhnikaaz

Anishnaabe kwe niin daaw

Kikonaang miinwaa Zaagiing doonjibaa

Mzhiikehn Doodem

Maandaawkwe daansan

Jigjigneshiikwe Ooshenyan

Zhaawnannkwadokwe tkobdoonsan

Hello friends, my name is Lacie, also known as Waase’aabinokwe – I am the daughter of Maandaawkwe, the granddaughter of Jigjigneshiikwe, and the great-granddaughter of Zhaawnaankwadokwe. I am an Anishnaabe woman of the Turtle Clan. My Mother’s family comes from the Saugeen First Nation in the Bruce Peninsula, along the Saugeen River. My father’s family is from Kikonaang (Kettle Point First Nation) as well as Aazhoodenaang (Stoney Point First Nation), both of which are on the shores of Lake Huron. My ancestors have lived, loved, laughed and wept on this land for many many generations. I honour those who came before us, cared for us, and loves us so that we could be here right now, living in a good way.

This walk was recorded in London, Ontario, the traditional lands of the Attawandaron (also known as the Neutral) people and territories associated with various treaties of the Anishinaabeg, Haudenosaunee, and Lunaapewak. Locally, there are three First Nations communities. They are the Chippewas of the Thames First Nation, the Oneida Nation of the Thames and the Munsee Delaware Nation. We would also like to recognize the urban Indigenous urban populations, comprised of First Nations, Métis, and Inuit people. We acknowledge the traditional lands upon which we operate, as well as all the sacred waterways.

[swoosh and bell sound]
 

Daniel Bennett

So, tell me where we're starting this walk today.

Getting started: Emma Donoghue, Lauren Rebelo (recording), and Daniel Bennett stand at the start of their route on Beaconsfield Avenue in London, Ontario.

Emma Donoghue

We're on Beaconsfield, which is the last road north in Wortley Village, I don't know, doesn't quite count as officially Wortley Village, but it's … it's the last bit of this neighbourhood and before you head downtown, and this is where Chris and I came to rent in, oh, maybe '96, 1996, so it's a long time ago now. And I remember learning to, or attempting to, learn to rollerblade on this road because it's nice quiet road you know it's on a loop, it's not a through road to anywhere, so I'd stumble along in my rollerblades and I remember the neighbours sitting on their porches and laugh amiably, you know? In Ireland, we don't have porches, right, so, so the interactions with the neighbours that you get in an area like this where there are porches, I love it. It's very social, it's very open.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah, so why don't you tell me the story about how you arrived in London and arrived here on Beaconsfield Street?

Emma Donoghue

Sure. Well, I, I'm from Dublin. And then when I was 20, I went to England to do a PhD at Cambridge, thinking that after that I'd probably go back to Ireland, but I fell in love with a Canadian, and so I was obliged, really to … to follow her to Canada. Now, luckily, I got to do it gradually, so I came maybe one month in three, for three years, so by the time I actually settled down in London, Ontario, I knew loads of people here, I knew the city, I knew there were things about it I liked. Several of those things immediately closed down, like the New Yorker Cinema, and the women's bookstore, but still, you know, I was, I was getting fond of the place already. So it wasn't quite as scary as moving somewhere without knowing anybody. And I've been here ever since. And it's always been a very handy sort of base in that it's, it's a pretty relaxed place to live I find, compared with my friends who are in really big cities. So for someone who's, until this year, had a lot of travel, it makes ahh - it makes a great kind of low stress base place to live.

Daniel Bennett

So you moved here for love?

Emma Donoghue

Indeed. And I once said that at a reading, and, and someone in the crowd said "love of Canada?" I'm amused at the idea that you'd be like, "Canada on the basis of merit alone is the country I must live!" Because of course Canada has many merits, so it's plausible that you could move for love of Canada, but you know, it's much more likely you'd fall for someone.

The walk begins

Daniel Bennett

And so, speaking about merits, what do you think your favourite thing about Wortley Village is?

Emma Donoghue

I know it seems a petty point but I really enjoyed the architecture. And you know, during quarantine, I've been strolling around a lot with the kids you know, trying to get them out of the house for little walks, and the houses are all different, you know, there's so many grand fancy looking Victorian mansions, and then tiny little shabby, you know, one-storey sheds, and it's a … it's a real mixture. And I always enjoy the kind of quirkiness of all the houses being different from each other. And something else I really like is that it's "village-y," meaning people will actually go on foot to the grocery store, the cafes, that kind of thing, so that gives us a bit more of a community feel than you would get if it was a place that people just drove to you know?

I can't stand the … the classic sort of 'burbs with their crescents, and their, you know, lack of sidewalks and everybody driving everywhere. So I like the .. the village-y-ness of Wortley Village, and I remember a few years after I got here, and they proposed to shut down our grocery store, which is a ValuMart and replace it, and there was mass protests and they kept the grocery store, and I remember being quite impressed that, there was enough of a community to actually pull together and, you know, block a change that we didn't want. So I liked that.

And so what's your favorite thing about ... so it's community, people are walking around on foot. What do you think that fosters here? People have random conversations, they bump into each other. For instance, until COVID, I would go and work quite often at Black Walnut Cafe, and I would always talk to people there. And you know, writing life is a fairly solitary one. So there's random conversations you have with neighbours on their porches or people in the cafe. I think they they're good for networking in the best sense. I don't mean growing your business necessarily, but, um, human contact and becoming aware of, you know, what people around you care about and what their priorities are, so I just like that I you know, North America is more of a car culture than Europe, and so I would feel very alienated if I had settled in a part of North America that was all about driving everywhere. So um, yeah, it's the - I really like the human scale of things.

And then there are events like the, it's now twice yearly, Gathering on the Green when you'll get lots of community organizations and little jewelry stalls and so on setting up little … little stalls on The Green, so it has a kind of, you know, medieval fair vibe. I find it very friendly area. I mean, it's .. it's not I wouldn't say it's cool, right? We, none of us would claim that. It's not particularly funky. Old East seems much funkier, and obviously, houses are cheaper there. So you get much better mix of people - here, you know that the price of the houses is a factor, but still, they're … they're a small um, kind of, um, you know, buildings where lots of people rent their apartment buildings and so on, so it's not all big houses. I find by contrast, we lived in Old North for a little bit and I found that a bit more chilly, you know, high value houses and less chumminess.

Beaconsfield Avenue and Wortley Road

Daniel Bennett

So we're here at the corner of Beaconsfield and Wortley. And I love looking at the downtown core and seeing the high rises but surrounded by the city. As you think about how this has changed this, view over the last number of years, you've been here, what pops into your mind?

Looking downtown from the corner of Beaconsfield Ave and Wortley Rd

Emma Donoghue

Well, I think there have been some real triumphs, you know, and the new Covent Garden Market is such an amazing sort of multipurpose space. Our daughter is in a theatre company there, Original Kids, and .. and, you know, in, when she breaks between rehearsals, she goes down and gets food there. And there's always something on and there are craft fairs and so on, so that's an amazing space.

And I'm looking at the new high rises, which is a change, but so much of it stays the same. I love having the river at the heart of the city, and the way it heads off in several directions.

I've really treasured the bike paths recently, um, actually, what's really striking me at this corner is that it all looks very lovely, but you know, I know some people have been living under those trees over there. It's the kind of thing you don't see in a postcard isn't this you know that you would have hidden homelessness, um, I'm so grateful we have as much in the way of nature as we do and open spaces, say, the Thames Park just to our right. I was there this morning swimming in their Olympic-sized outdoor pool, you know, so, so I think it would be a shame if this city let the balance tip too much towards buildings and not enough nature, you know.

Bike paths, the river, and high rises.

Daniel Bennett

But let's continue walking, we'll head south on Wortley. During the pandemic, we've all been outside more enjoying nature, so I really hear that you cherish that in London.

Byron Avenue and Wortley Road

Emma Donoghue

And I would read, you know, I'd read articles by journalists in Toronto and it would sound way more dystopian because they were like, I can't go for a walk without being within six feet of everybody you know, or kids who wanted to play basketball and it was taped off, you know, so I think having relatively spacious streets here and there always been, it was always possible to go for walks, even if things like playgrounds were officially shut, so I found that really helped us keep our sanity here.

Daniel Bennett

What have you been thinking most about during the pandemic?

Emma Donoghue

Oh, I've been working at full tilt really. So with more comfort television added definitely you know, I'm finding The Office and Schitt's Creek definitely helped to get through.

Daniel Bennett

I watched all six seasons of Schitt's Creek I love it!

Emma Donoghue

It's superb! Ah, I must admit, I've been distracted, you know, I've done more of that, you know, doom scrolling of social media that I would usually do. And because I write a lot of historical fiction, I often spend my days you know, in the 17th Century, or somewhere far, far away, ehm, but I have to say during ... during COVID, I've definitely been more preoccupied with current times, you know. But on the other hand, it's been quite a nice period because I'm used to traveling so much.

You know, usually in launching a new book, I would be traveling all over the place at least two weeks in the States, for instance, just non-stop self-promotion and now I'm doing all that but online and it takes up much less of your day, you know? Compared with having to fly to another city and stay overnight, just to do one event, and doing it on Zoom, leaves a lot more time for life, you know, so that blank calendar in the kitchen I look at it in amazement, like it's been blank since mid-March and I seem to be okay with that. Maybe not forever, but right now it's ... it's all been quite relaxing.

Daniel Bennett

And so now that you're doing these events over Zoom, how has your relationship to your readers changed?

Emma Donoghue

Well, I realized that you know, the thing about doing a traditional book tour is that it prioritizes big cities, so I've readers in say San Francisco or Boston, who would come to my reading every time I do a reading there, so there's a kind of a prioritizing of the ... the big city readers and with … with events on Instagram Live or Facebook Live, you can be reaching anybody in the world. So it's not as fun an event for me, I'm not you know, having a nice dinner out with the organizers dressing up and going somewhere, but on the other hand, I suddenly see that there's somebody chiming in from Iowa, somebody chiming in from Argentina, and, again, people can access your event afterwards. So there's a real, there's a kind of a long tail in that often, maybe 300 people will come to an event on the day, but then 2000 will the following week.

So I realize, you know, it's a different way of accessing readers and I can certainly get to the far away ones, more than I used to. And of course, how I really reach my readers is through my books, you know, that, that amazing, sort of intimate moment of my book getting into their head. That doesn't depend on me doing any events.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah, it's so interesting how we've increased accessibility to predominantly everything over the course of the pandemic.

Emma Donoghue

Well, for instance, you know, I love theatre, obviously, and I've always not only gone to plays that are locally both, you know, community plays here, and professional ones that are at the Grand. But I've done a trip to Toronto for theatre, and then when we've been in England and Ireland, I've seen theatre, but I've always thought of it as something I had to go to cities for, and I've never bothered watching any online because it seemed like why would you stoop to that? It's not the same thing. But of course, I've had to stoop so I think after about two weeks of quarantine and feeling so stressed out, we watched one of the National Theatre live performances, it was One Man, Two Guvnors. And it was so funny and it was the first time I relaxed during that lockdown period. And I realized, okay, this may not be live theatre, as I know and love it, but it's a lot better than nothing.

And so I've been watching lots of lots of theatre online. And I'm trying various of the new experiments like, I bought a ticket to see Andrew Scott, do a play live in an empty theatre, for instance, so it'll be very interesting to see how theatres find different ways of making theatre happen, you know, during these bizarre circumstances,

Daniel Bennett

Yes. When we can't gather how can we create a digital space where we can still feel gathered?

Emma Donoghue

Yeah. And the same with music in the same word, lots of forms of performance.

Daniel Bennett

So as we approach kind of downtown Wortley we're, we're seeing the beauty here of the little shops and the restaurants. Is there a favorite place you have downtown?

Approaching the Main Village

Emma Donoghue

Absolutely, yeah. The Black Walnut is just outstanding in its, well, first of all, its pastries. You know, there's a particular scone and, you know, if I was ever having a really hard day, I'd say to myself, okay, I promise myself an oat and date scone from the Black Walnut. Also, it's a very relaxed, friendly space, occasionally too friendly in that if I'm trying to get some work done, you know, people come up and talk to me all the time. But that's a good complaint to have. And when I heard about the shutdown, the first thing I did was rushed into Black Walnut and buy a $200 gift certificate just as my little prayer that they would open again afterwards, because I know you know, businesses are going to be lost during this. So I've been doing my best to spend my money on the ones I care about or say, I went to the cinema the other day for the first time.

Our Hyland Cinema on Wharncliffe - I was nervous but I thought you know, there has to be cinema when we come back to this, so going to try it out here and luckily the Hyland matinees tend to be pretty quiet. Not many people there anyway. Yeah, it's interesting. Would you feel, do you feel, you're more conscious of where you're spending your dollar? Definitely. And you know, it's become a kind of a running joke that the kids will say to me, let's order pizza from Bondi's because, you know, we have to invest in the economy. You know, it's patriotic. Let's get more cake.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah. Yeah, it's amazing how we are now more invested, I feel, like in the community around us.

Emma Donoghue

Yeah, like okay, the other day our compost kitchen compost tub broke. And Chris was going to go buy one at Home Depot, and I was like, no, no, hang on. Let's call Tuckey's Hardware here in the Village, they might have it and they did, and so I was able to keep those dollars in the Village. And the same. I've always sought out you know, doctors and dentists and use the pharmacy in the Village to try and keep it going.

Tuckey's Home Hardware

Daniel Bennett

So we've touched on, you know, the community feeling of Wortley, and I feel like as artists a lot of the time where we're kind of latently grabbing inspiration from things that float by. Do you feel like the community feel of Wortley impacts your work or makes its way into your work?

Emma Donoghue

I do, yeah, because even though I tend to choose quite, you know, high stakes plots to write about in something like Room, which I'd be best known for, I have quite a quite a bit of contemporary fiction, where the background is very kind of relaxed, everyday life, you know, I have a scene in a playground or something. So I'm sure that my more you know, low-key experiences living in Wortley Village over the years have crept in too, yeah.

Daniel Bennett

Do you think that as artists, we have a responsibility, a responsibility to create work that reflects the community we're in?

Emma Donoghue

I don't know. I would hate to tell anyone what they need to make art about. I think in practice, if you have a healthy say … city with artists in it, you will get art about that world but, but you can't make it a requirement.

And I would say the same about speaking from any group that you're from. I mean, I feel I'm very much, you know, identified as being Irish, but I don't feel I have to sell any one of my books there. I find I double back to Ireland, maybe every third or fourth book.

You know, again, quite a few of my books have lesbian storylines in them, but they don't all and I would hate it if anyone said like, "Oh, you need to speak up for the lesbians. You must." You know, so I kind of treasure artistic freedom that way. It's probably more that I feel artists have a responsibility to help cultivate the art of others in their community. You know, I really like I don't know things like being, you know, being a subscriber at the Grand, that kind of thing, you know, feeling that I go to concerts here, I go to Sunfest I, I keep, you know, I take part as a consumer of arts, in the artistic life of my community.

Daniel Bennett

So if you’re writing a character that has a different background from your own, what do you have to do to ensure fair representation?

Emma Donoghue

Ah, probably, you know, we have to think about it more and more these days, I think I think it's something that published writers, and particularly white writers used to be dead casual about, and not at all now, that's all to the good, you know, you should always have to say to yourself, "Why am I writing this? Why am I putting this element in the story? And above all, "Do I think I'm going to manage to get it right?"

So I've written books set in many historical eras, and, you know, I always say to myself, okay, is this is this something I click with enough that I can immerse myself in the sources and get a sense of what it was like to live then? So you know, if you think you can get any character to be really convincing on the page by doing enough for research, not just book research, but life research, then great, but you really need to ask yourself that question first rather than just saying I have a right, you know?

Daniel Bennett

Yeah. So we're going to be turning right down Elmwood Avenue. So just make a right here.

Emma Donoghue

I'm seeing the big Normal School on our left. And for years, we were afraid, we'd lose that building, they didn't quite know what to do with it, but it's a wonderful old Victorian building standing on our central Green. But luckily the YMCA took it over, and they've made it this amazing space. My son's done cooking lessons in there, and it's got this sort of majestic hall in the middle.

Daniel Bennett

I've never been inside but what I always appreciate from the outside of that building is the marriage between the old Victorian stone and the glass.

Emma Donoghue

Yes, that's right. They put a lovely modern glass column in the middle for I think, you know, lift and accessibility. It's great when a building kind of wears its modern side, without embarrassment, I'm thinking of it the School of Music in Toronto, and it's got like an old bit and then a totally modern bit. And the ROM, again has done a beautiful kind of marriage of a Victorian building and a highly modern one.

Daniel Bennett

So where do you think London has the most room to grow?

Emma Donoghue

Good question. I think there can sometimes be a kind of a small C, conservatism or safeness or timidity about it. I think it can really help when, when people with outside ambitions like say, Dennis Garnhum at the Grand move in and have, you know, bigger and bolder expectations for a place, than those of us who've been living here all the time have.

So I think it could certainly, certainly afford to get a bit more political. I was quite amazed, for instance, that our, you know, at the height of the Black Lives Matter protests, that was a big demo down in the park. I wasn't even at it because I was so afraid of COVID I just went to the smaller Wortley Village one which was a few hundred people. But it was a bigger crowd than there was a Donald Trump's rally that week. And I think that surprised a lot of us. So, there's clearly, you know, room for London to become a more, a more awake and politically, lively place than many of us thought about.

Daniel Bennett

And so we're just going to be turning left here to go south on Cathcart Street. And so with a little bit more political awakeness, what do you hope changes come? What do you what do you mean? Is it diversity? Is it acceptance? What?

Elmwood Avenue East and Cathcart Street

Emma Donoghue

Yeah, I would like to see London's culture become more diverse. I think there are already certain pockets in which that happens. Like, I think it's ... it's a very, you know, accepted thing now, for instance, for the … the summer festivals, you know, to be hugely international. A festival like Sunfest, but perhaps there's a bit of a tendency to, to keep that in its little bubble and say, you know, that bit is Sunfest, but then, you know, the … the, I don't know the, the big music names we might see at a venue like Centennial Hall might be a more you know, conventional mix. I'm probably bad mouthing their program there.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah I love I love the summer festivals. Do you have a relationship to the summer festivals here in London?

Emma Donoghue

We nearly always go to Sunfest, yes, and also The Fringe I'm very fond of. It's you know, theatre at its liveliest, it's low budget and it's very passionate often the performers will be doing shows based on their own lives, you know, so we took our, she was 11 I think, to a show in which a woman not only recounted her childbirth blow by blow, but took out her glass eye and showed us around. I just thought oh, this is superb, this is what we don't get it and bigger, more big budget theatres, you know, this kind of, you know, direct contact with someone, you know, they're just six feet away and you've already paid 15 bucks and … and the whole thing has a rough edged, but very passionate feel.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah, there's something about the grittiness of The Fringe that can be really inspiring.

Emma Donoghue

Absolutely. And it doesn't mean low standards, it just means that you, you play to the strengths of fringe shows, you know, you go for things that don't necessarily need a big budget, but where the, you know, the passion on the talent of the performance is what matters. And often the same performance will come year after year, so it's like sort of waiting for the traveling circus to come back every summer.

Daniel Bennett

So something I hear a lot about in theatre, you know, there's a specific canon that a lot of communities are really familiar with and … and want to go to the theatre to see. But then there's also other stories that may not fit into that mold. How do you think we bridge the gap and try and bring those stories and into larger theatre spaces?

Talking theatre

Emma Donoghue

Well, I suppose you use, the way publishers will use their kind of guaranteed bestsellers to then subsidize the riskier projects, you know, they'll publish their poetry in a way backed by their celebrity memoir. And similarly with theatre, I know I've seen some incredibly lively shows, in the McManus space at the Grand that might not have been possible to put on the big stage. Or at Stratford, I remember going three years in a row to see Peter, do I mean, Hinton?

Daniel Bennett

Peter Hinton?

Emma Donoghue

Yeah, his three-part play called The Swan, an extraordinary show. And we saw that in the smaller studio space there again, you might not have got the audience in the bigger theatres, but once, once a theatre has a reputation, that trust can kind of extend to more, you know, projects that the audience might not know in advance that they want to see but they'll say "Oh it's on at Stratford it must be good." So I think it's probably a very tricky balancing act for them to curate programs that include the riskier stuff they want, but also enough guaranteed crowd pleasers. You know, I'm glad I don't have that job. Must be extremely tricky to try and work out. You know, how to balance the budget and still do work that really excites you?

Daniel Bennett

Is there a show that you believe balances bringing something new and old together?

Emma Donoghue

I'd say an outstanding example um, is Hamilton. I've been a fan of it ever since I read a piece of it in The New Yorker years ago. And then I was going to be in New York for one night on my own, and my brother was living there at the time and I didn't even tell my brother I was in town. I paid a scalper 300 bucks for a ticket to Hamilton, I was shocked at myself. And I thought, okay, you know, the pressure's really on for this to be an amazing show. But it was the best night I've spent at the theatre. I think what's extraordinary about it is that it's … it's a meeting between the 21st century and the 18th. And I think, you know, for people to call it inaccurate is … is the wrong … is the wrong kind of commentary.

Somebody the other day was saying that it's really, it's like a form of fanfiction. It's a deliberate, fresh take on something. It's a, it's an interaction between contemporary performers and performers of colour, interacting with the with the founding fathers. It's not meant to be just a sort of, you know, truer version. It's … it's a conversation. It's a wrap between different eras. I think that's set of really interesting precedent for ways in which we can make the old new. I think Canadian audiences have got very used to the casting of diverse actors in, you know, the traditional white parts. But that's only that's only one way that you can liven up these projects. I think there are all sorts of interesting things we can probably do with scripts or storylines as well.

Daniel Bennett

Obviously, you're a storyteller. So why do you tell stories?

Emma Donoghue

I just get a pleasure out of writing in any form that I have never got from anything else. I remember being I think, seven, walking home from school, and suddenly getting words in my head, and I kind of stopped in my head. I formed them into some little poem about a fairy and, you know, I can't describe how exciting this was, just to put together words that never been together before. It felt absolutely magical. And I love all the sort of interactions with an audience in various forms, but that is secondary because, you know, first of all, I get the pleasure, just at home, me looking at my computer, making up a sentence that has never been said before. And it's odd because writing you might think is a very introverted career and I'm very extroverted. I love to socialize. But I just get such a buzz from putting the words together. And the important thing is to keep to keep it fresh, to keep getting that buzz, and so for me, novelty is crucial.

I've been this for so long, and I've never, never really done any other job since I was sacked as a chambermaid. So, for me, trying new genres, for instance, has been crucial in keeping … keeping it scary, actually, in a good sense.

You know, that the zone I was in when I was trying to write the script of Room or writing my first children's book, you know, feeling like "what am I doing, I'm an amateur. I don't know what I'm doing, but this is so exciting." You don't want to be in a smug or comfortable space with your art. Yeah. What do you think? So how do you go and seek out discomfort? Well, Well, I suppose it's a … it's a fine line because I don't want to seek out something that I think I'd be really bad at.

For instance, one of my plays, a composer asked, could you make an opera of it? And he said, "Would you like to write the libretto?" And I spent about a morning going "ooh, yes, write a libretto." And then I thought I don't really like opera and I have no reason to think that I'd be able to figure out where to put the words so they'd sound right as sung. So when you know that was an example of a project, I said no to and somebody else adapted it. But other projects, I think, I have never written a film script before, but I've seen a million films and I have a feel for how I think the story might work on film, and I don't know you just you just sort of look out for that feeling of nervous excitement in yourself, I suppose.

Daniel Bennett

As someone who spans many different genres and forms: what comes first, story or genre? Or they come at the same time?

Emma Donoghue

No, I never just pick a genre. It's never sort of strategic decision. And it could be a character or it could be a story. And sometimes it's a real story, something that's happened in the past and the long past. But it's nearly always, yeah, the story that comes first, and then I try and figure out what genre it should be in, you know, what genre would bring out its strengths.

For instance, I think the first time I wrote a radio play, it's because I was writing about a witch trial in Ireland in the 17th Century, and I wanted to concentrate on the several days that the accused woman was in jail. I thought okay, it's a .. it's a locked up isolated jail piece, this needs to be just sound. I don't want to see her sitting in her cell. I want this to be all voices in the dark, so I thought, okay, it's clearly radio. And so that was an example of where it's not that I ever thought, oh, I must write radio drama. It's just the stories seem to require it.

And again, I try and make the style suit the story rather than having a kind of Emma Donoghue style. So some of my friends read several of my books before they met me, and they had no idea that that was all one person, they haven't really noticed the name on the cover. So I love that, because it means that I've kind of served the story rather than, you know, trying to write something that was representative of me.

Daniel Bennett

So we're turning left on Langarth Street, which is a street that has significant importance to you. Why would that be?

Cathcart Street and Langarth Street

Emma Donoghue

Well, not only have I lived on the street a long time, but I have very happy memories of a tree that's no longer here. Because it's, it's our son's creation myth, right? I was seven and a half months pregnant and, you know, expecting our baby would be a Christmas baby. And then suddenly in the night there was a windstorm and a massive tree, which I had never consciously seen before, it was out on the, the city-owned bit of grass out front, it suddenly fell on our car, our porch, the neighbor's car, and the neighbor's porch. I had honestly never seen this tree before. It's an area of big trees. I don't really notice them individually, but suddenly, you know, we tried to get out of the door in the middle of the night and it was branches in our face. And we ran around the side of the house. And I remember there was a Hydro employee there and he said, careful, you're about to step on a downed line, you know, so anyway, the neighbors took us in and gave us pumpkin muffins was a very Wortley Village moment, and then the next day I gave birth to Finn early.

So um, you know, he loves the story. It is kind of a creation myth. And, but somehow the sheer drama of that moment, you know, the lights of our squashed car, stayed on for several days, as if like Godzilla had been by, the car was absolutely squashed by this. Yeah, that means it's a street I'll never forget. I never understand people who move house regularly because to me, and when you've lived somewhere and maybe especially if you have kids there, you know, the place is so marked by your memories, and has such sort of fond associations. I can't really imagine moving unless I had some very good reason to.

Yeah, no change is little over the years, like just the last few years, we have these, these little mini libraries, these book boxes where people give away books, you know, and just those tiny details can make an area feel so kind of friendly.

Book boxes

Daniel Bennett

You recently, just a few months ago released a new book, The Pull of the Stars, and can you tell me a little bit about what the what the books about?

Emma Donoghue

Sure, The Pull of the Stars, weirdly enough is a pandemic novel, which I brought out in the middle of a pandemic, and quite by accident. I started writing it in 2018 on the train to Toronto, and I was I accidentally left my laptop here charging so I was on my way to Toronto to the International Festival of Authors and to my horror, I had no laptop to write.

So I had to read the magazine I had with me cover to cover, it was The Economist magazine, and I read an article about the flu pandemic 1918. And I was so gripped by its atmosphere, the way I don't know it sounded more post-apocalyptic than traditional historical, and that this was a very modern, industrialized electrified world. And suddenly, everything was shutting down and people were terrified of each other. You know, wearing masks and, you know, soaking their scarves in carbolic or eucalyptus oil and carrying onions in their pockets, such a weird mixture of the modern scientific and the kind of medieval superstitious.

So I thought I had to write a novel about that. I never thought it would be relevant today, you know, so um, I wrote the novel in 2019, and sold it and my publisher said, Oh, we can't publish it in 2020, because, you know, the American election will dominate the headlines, so let's put it off to 2021. So I delivered it at the start of March and I really hadn't been paying much attention to the news because between going to rehearsals for the production of Room, which was about to open, and finishing the novel, you know, I was totally head down, buried … buried in my work, so then when I delivered the novel and the Room production was cancelled, and I just felt utterly crushed.

And then my publishers emailed to me and said, "You know, I think we're bringing your novel out in July because it's relevant to the pandemic," and I was kind of horrified at first, I thought it seems, you know, in bad taste to be trying to sell anything cultural product during a pandemic. But then I thought, no, it just makes more sense this year, it's part of the conversation. So it has given me a chance to do lots of interviews about not just how brave medical frontline health workers are, but it's a new phrase I learned the other day social determinants of health, you know, because in 1918, as in 2020, pandemics aren't random. They hit those who are already we can file those underlying conditions of poverty and, and structural injustice.

So it's funny how very relevant to today the novel turned out to be because it's all about patients from the Dublin slums in an Irish hospital. And the fact that, you know, they come to the hospital already so weakened by the years of bad air, bad water, tainted milk, lack of nutrition, too much childbearing, given that it's Ireland, which is very pro-natalist culture, nothing, not so much, now. My mother had eight of us and my sisters and I've only had you know, maximum three.

Daniel Bennett

I'm an only child so I don't even know!

Emma Donoghue

Oh well we'd consider that a tragedy.

Daniel Bennett

Well, how serendipitous. Do you think, think it's serendipitous that the pandemic happened?

Emma Donoghue

I do really, I suspect that there's a novel about a pandemic every year, we just only notice them in a year when there really is a pandemic. Yeah, but what's eerie is how close the echoes are for me, because, you know, I, when I would read the headlines in the last few months, I remember in particular, when Boris Johnson came up with that headline, know what that slogan, "Stay Alert," I thought, oh, that's so like a bit of 1918 government propaganda, you know, vague, you know meant to be reassuring but actually just makes the individual feel uneasy. Like is that their fault if they get the flu you know?

Daniel Bennett

Do you ever put a personal stories in your in your writing?

Emma Donoghue

Yes I do. And the funny thing is, if I put them in my contemporary writing, people often would guess or … or might assume that there's something autobiographical in my work, but if I put them in my historical fiction, nobody tends to think they're mine, but actually say one of the birth stories in The Pull of the Stars, is mine because I was kind of I was trying to choose interesting storylines for … for the way births might go, given that the novel is set in this tiny little labor ward/fever ward.

So I sort of used one birth quest of a friend of mine and then I thought, oh, I'll put in my own one because I am I had you know, one thing go wrong in in the birth of Finn and I had these great midwives and also a local a gynecologist, and between them all, you know, they, they made sure everything went well. But I remember that moment thinking, "Oh, this is what good healthcare means. I go home happy tomorrow, if I was in a different part of the world, I could die of this, this is exactly what women die of." So I suppose I've been feeling quite strongly ever since that, that moment that, you know, healthcare is we suppose we take it for granted here, but it really is one of the things that makes Canada most precious is that we all get health care.

And but we don't get it equally, I mean, I've, I've read about women in very isolated reserves, for instance, who, you know, they can't get maternity care there, and they have to fly south and be away from their families for months on end, you know, that would have been a very different kind of birth experience. So, yeah, it was quite fun putting a, you know, a medical drama into my novel, with … with the perspective being the nurse who's desperately trying to fix the situation rather than the patient. So yes, it's always fun to take your own stuff, do some kind of reversal of it.

By the park

Daniel Bennett

And has anyone close to you noticed that in your book yet?

Emma Donoghue

Oh probably told them all about it. I'm a big blabber mouth. and I sent a copy to the to the midwives and sent another copy to the gynecologist to say thanks.

Daniel Bennett

You're in here, thank you so much.

Emma Donoghue

Yes indeed. Here's another charming new Wortley Village thing. We've got these free herb boxes going up everywhere. A few of them have been raided by herb thieves would you believe, who drive around clearly people from outside Wortley Village, drive around steal the parts, but the parts have survived. It's just so cute.

Herb boxes

Daniel Bennett

It's adorable. And I love that spirit of community giving

Emma Donoghue

Yeah, you know, you could easily make fun too. Actually when we first moved in to our house, and a neighbour came around with pie and I was thinking okay, this is this is too nice. This is creepy. This is Stepford. I thought there's going to be some hideous agenda, it'll be a really conservative place if they're bringing pie. But no, turns out no, they can bring pie and not being conservative place. It's just homey, but not conservative.

Daniel Bennett

I know I'm really excited. I one of my go-to's is cheesecakes. So when I move into my new place, I'm hoping to adorn my neighbours with cheesecakes.

Emma Donoghue

Okay, they will love you.

Daniel Bennett

So we're going to cross the street here at Duchess and Wortley. So let's make sure we look both ways. Okay, we're good. And we're going to end in the Wortley Green, where beautiful century trees, that building we spoke about earlier. What do you love most about the space?

Crossing to Wortley Green

Wortley and Duchess Avenue

Emma Donoghue

It's open and during the lockdown when we were used to taking lots of little walks, but we were just desperate for a bit more space, we came here first really warm afternoon to throw a frisbee around. And it was just blissed to be able to, you know, stretch out farther than … than the traditional six feet and lie on the grass and be outdoors. So I treasure it. Yeah. And the trees are lovely and old too. There's nothing like old trees for uplift.

Daniel Bennett

Something I love about it is that all of the houses surrounding it are facing, are facing the green.

Emma Donoghue

Yeah, that's true.

Daniel Bennett

And it gives it such a community, a community sense sensibility to it.

Emma Donoghue

Yeah. And you know, I'm looking at one house where our daughter was in daycare as a baby, and I'm looking at the … the former Normal School where the kids have done courses and camps and so on. So yeah, this whole place has this sort of imprints of our family all over it.

Emma Donoghue, Lauren Rebelo and Daniel Bennett stand in the playing field outside of the former Normal School, now YMCA.

Daniel Bennett

[ethereal background music]

Thanks for coming on a Grand walk with me. I have to say that was so cool for me, I "stan" Emma Donoghue a lot. Looking at the YMCA, I reflect on our conversation about the beauty of the blend of old and new architecture, how these two styles from different centuries can coexist in a balanced and harmonious way, not unlike the marriage of old and new we see in production of Hamilton. We are living in such divisive times, I hope we can find a way to balance our opposing views and find some harmony.

The Grand walks would not be possible without our lovely team here at the Grand including Dennis Garnhum, Lauren Rebelo, Jen Matthews, Aaron Ouellette, Suzanne Lanthier, Deb Harvey, Lyndee Hansen, Nora McLeod, Jake Dunbar, Lacie George and Megan Watson. Special thanks to Rob Novakovic, Camille Schlivert, Jessie Potter and Frank Donato for brainstorming with me. Thanks again and looking forward to getting some more steps in with you soon.