GRAND WALKS Episode 4: A Springbank Stroll with Natasha George

Daniel Bennett

[ethereal background music]

Welcome to the Grand Walks, I am your host, Daniel Bennett. Since the pandemic is preventing us from making theatre, we are focusing the spotlight out into the community to learn more about some London locals and their favourite places.

Today, we are strolling through Springbank Park with Natasha George, a leader in the First Nations community. I can’t wait to take in the fall sights, talk about observation, and the need to foster a sense of community in London.

By now, hopefully you are standing at the starting place of the walk which is slightly northeast of the Civic Gardens Complex near the pagoda and have had an opportunity to look at the map and directions. Listen for me giving location markers at every turn, that’s how you’ll know where you are in relation to us. Feel free to speed up, slow down or give us a pause if you need to.

I’ll let you know when it is time to start walking but for now, take in the sights around you while listening to Lacie George, costumer at the Grand who will get us started with a land acknowledgment.
 

Lacie George

[nature sounds]

Waase’aabinokwe N’dizhnikaaz

Anishnaabe kwe niin daaw

Kikonaang miinwaa Zaagiing doonjibaa

Mzhiikehn Doodem

Maandaawkwe daansan

Jigjigneshiikwe Ooshenyan

Zhaawnannkwadokwe tkobdoonsan

Hello friends, my name is Lacie, also known as Waase’aabinokwe – I am the daughter of Maandaawkwe, the granddaughter of Jigjigneshiikwe, and the great-granddaughter of Zhaawnaankwadokwe. I am an Anishnaabe woman of the Turtle Clan. My Mother’s family comes from the Saugeen First Nation in the Bruce Peninsula, along the Saugeen River. My father’s family is from Kikonaang (Kettle Point First Nation) as well as Aazhoodenaang (Stoney Point First Nation), both of which are on the shores of Lake Huron. My ancestors have lived, loved, laughed and wept on this land for many many generations. I honour those who came before us, cared for us, and loves us so that we could be here right now, living in a good way.

This walk was recorded in London, Ontario, the traditional lands of the Attawandaron (also known as the Neutral) people and territories associated with various treaties of the Anishinaabeg, Haudenosaunee, and Lunaapewak. Locally, there are three First Nations communities. They are the Chippewas of the Thames First Nation, the Oneida Nation of the Thames and the Munsee Delaware Nation. We would also like to recognize the urban Indigenous urban populations, comprised of First Nations, Métis, and Inuit people. We acknowledge the traditional lands upon which we operate, as well as all the sacred waterways.

[swoosh and bell sound]
 

Natasha George and Daniel Bennett get ready to walk

Daniel Bennett

Hi Natasha, how are you?

Natasha George

I'm good, Daniel.

Daniel Bennett

Fantastic. So why don't you tell me where we're standing right now?

Natasha George

Natasha George

Well, we are standing in London, Ontario, the beautiful London, Ontario and we are right beside the Civic Gardens. We just walked from a parking lot and we are beginning our walk for today.

Daniel Bennett

Fantastic. Well, let's step across this footbridge here and go down into Springbank Park. So why did you choose Springbank Park as your location?

Daniel and Natasha walk by a wooden fence on the path

Natasha George

Well, if you look around, you can see all these beautiful gorgeous trees in this garden here off to the left, not to the right. I chose this area specifically because it's so gorgeous, and it is a space away from the hustle and bustle of the city. I love trees, mostly. I love gardening, but I especially love trees. Yeah, so for me, I often take my children here so they can kind of, you know, reconnect, and I'm doing that in air quotations, to the natural world. So, it is very important to me.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah. How many children do you have?

Natasha George

I have two children, two girls. One's two and one's eight.

Daniel Bennett

Oh, fantastic. I bet they love coming here, don't they?

Natasha George

Oh, yes. As you can see along here too, there's lots of places for them to run and to play. Yeah, they climb all over this place and, even roll down the hill, sometimes it's totally fine.

Daniel Bennett

So, can you tell me what's your favourite thing about London, Ontario?

Natasha George

Well, actually, Daniel, I'm not a really big fan of London, Ontario. I moved here about four years ago from Windsor, and before then moved a couple other places. Oh, let's go see this bridge over here, Daniel, it's really...

A view of the path across the bridge

Daniel Bennett

Perfect. Let's, yeah, let's turn left here at the stop sign. And yeah, and let's, when we get to the centre of the bridge, how about we take a pause for a moment. So, tell me what, what about London makes it not your favourite place?

Natasha George

First off, I think the people here in London are not as friendly as other places in Ontario. So, when you come to a new community, and people aren't as welcoming or as community driven, it kind of like deters a person from like, you know, really feeling that sense of community. That's one of my biggest deterrents of London. I also, it kind of feels like there's like, no soul here in London almost, well, from my experience anyways.

Daniel Bennett

And what do you mean by no soul? What are you looking for when you say that?

Natasha George

I am looking for, like a community-based place like, you know, people are just…the people make up a community. So, if there's people in a community that are not engaged, or just closed off it, like they're, not communicating, they're not looking, they're not being present, it creates an energy, a soulless energy.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah.

Natasha George

Yeah.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah. So, you're looking for a little bit more warmth?

Natasha George

Yes, exactly.

Daniel Bennett

Mm hmm. So why don't you tell me a little bit about where you grew up?

Natasha George

Okay, sure. Well, I grew up, um, actually, I moved around a lot growing up, but my main home base as a young child was Kettle Point, which is a Reserve close by. Yeah, it was a great place to grow up where I lived, well picture this. You're standing on a road, you look out, and you see that gorgeous Lake Huron. Like this beautiful water, we're actually on a bridge right now, and you can see if you look down, Daniel, this is the Thames River. So, when I was growing up, we live at the banks of Lake Huron. So, you know, that's a place where I grew up. And behind our house, there was a beautiful, large forest and a lot of different things to do as children. We lived in a little tiny, two-bedroom house. And there were six kids in our house, and my two parents, so there's eight people living in our tiny little house. But you know, my experience living on the Reserve was really good, because we had opportunities to, like, go out and explore and be part of natural world and swim and fish and like, you know, engage in more culturally-based activities. Yeah, so it was really great growing up on the Reserve. And the one thing I really liked about Reserve life was that you knew everyone. You knew your neighbours. I could literally go and tell you everyone who lived in every single house on the Reserve. So, growing up, people would come and say, like, "oh, do you need a ride to work?" And they'd pick you up if they'd seen you walking, you know, so it was really, really great that way.

A view of the Thames River from the bridge

Daniel Bennett

Yeah, yeah, so that's the sense of community you're talking about, is people taking care of each other.

Natasha George

Exactly.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah. And so how can we foster more of that here in the city, do you think?

Natasha George

Well, that's a really great question, and I think, um, I think everyone has to re-examine themselves and how they, like, you know, what kind of energy they're putting out there. You know, so it's not just like the community can't just put forward like a program, but every single person has to say, you know what, I'm proud to be from London. You know, this is the thing I want to contribute to London, and you know, participate and like, you know, say hello to your neighbor more and things like that, like, it's really simple. But, like as for London itself, you know, promoting of that. London itself, I think, you know, they do a lot of community-based events and things like that, but like, the more we can bring together different demographics within the city to come together and kind of like connect with each other and like, establish a London proud. I'm proud to be from London. And this is the reason why.

Daniel and Natasha pause at the middle of the bridge

Daniel Bennett

Yeah.

Natasha George

And so like, you know, people coming together from all over London, because that's an issue with London too. It's so, there's so many different groups of people, and there's a lot of like, upper middle-class people here in London. And those people, you can very clearly see that they have a different kind of energy, like a snooty energy.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah.

Natasha George

So, like to incorporate every group and to be like more like an all-united front, I think would be just a way forward for London.

Daniel Bennett

I really love that. And thank you for taking me to this bridge. I've actually never stood on this bridge, and it looks like, you can you can't even tell the city's around us from this point. It looks like there's nature in all directions, and that's really special. I think I'm going to come here and watch the sunset one day.

Another view of the Thames River

Natasha George

Yeah.

Daniel Bennett

Well, let's continue walking.

Natasha George

Well, actually we're going to go back this way.

Daniel Bennett

Okay. Yeah, let's do it.

Natasha George

We're going to go back the way we came.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah, no worries.

Daniel Bennett

Natasha George

Okay.

Daniel Bennett

Um, so yeah, so you're talking about… there's a little bit of segregation here in London, and maybe some, some upper-crust attitude that prevents integration. How, how do you think we can engage in our communities to bring people together?

Natasha George

Well, I don't know, like, you know, just off the top of my head. Well, you very, you said that very well, that's exactly what I'm trying to say. But like, for example, like London itself is very spread out. There's a lot of like places and like communities, and things like that, so it's very, very, like, geographically segregated. So, like, when you're having schools, like a school is put in this like, upper class neighborhood, and, the kids there are only integrating with, oh, take a left over here, sorry, Daniel. Oh, so we're going to walk on this way. So, um, so anyways, by segregating communities, it creates segregation from children. So, children themselves are with the same group of people out they've always been with. So, you know, if you're establishing that at a young age segregation, based on neighborhoods, it continues on, right. So how could we like, you know, I know, no one's in favor of like these bigger schools, but like, you know, bringing more kids together from different communities. If it's not going to be through school, it should be through different other programs, maybe. And so, if we establish a new norm for like youth and children, maybe that will create a ripple effect. But that's like a more of a long-term goal. But the short-term basis, I think, I don't know, it's really hard to kind of rebuild a community.

A view down the path

Daniel Bennett

Yeah. Yeah, it definitely takes time to, you know, to shift attitudes and to put in the policy that can change communities. So, you used to work as a policy analyst, can you tell me a little bit about what you did there, and where you worked and things like that?

Natasha George

Sure, I can. Well, I, moved from Windsor, and I got a job here in London as a policy analyst. It was a really, really great opportunity. It was an excellent learning opportunity. And when I joined I, thought, "oh, my gosh, I'm in over my head," because what the organization did that I worked for, was they would advocate for First Nations people; advocate politically and socially in any possible way they could do that. So, what they did, they would advocate, they would go and lobby the government, different forms, you know, provincial, municipal, and also federal government for different issues and inclusion in policy and, change for specific member nations that we represented going forward. So oftentimes, well, the work I did specifically, was I did everything that wasn't education-based or it wasn't social-based. So, I'd do things like treaties, I would do security and policing, I would do environmental issues. Those were a few portfolios I had to work within. So, oftentimes what my actual job was doing was researching a lot of issues that would come up from policy, and I would figure out how it was going to impact First Nations people, and I would put forward recommendations to either change, or, you know, put forward ideas to the government to see how we can change or be included within that policy.

Yeah, so one specific example, I can think off the top of my head was that there was a Senate Committee that was discussing the Jay Treaty. Now, the Jay Treaty is its short form, name. So, basically what that was, was an agreement between the British Crown, because this is before Confederation, and the United States government, to allow trade across the border. And within that, they also said that First Nations people could travel freely across the border. Because before that happened, there was no border. So, First Nations, of course, because we're nomadic people, would travel, you know, freely across what we call Turtle Island. And so, the Jay Treaty basically helped First Nations people be able to do that still, with this new border that was established. So, coming back to reality and current day, there's issues with border crossing and security, especially after 9/11. So what was happening was the Canadian government was reviewing the Jay Treaty, and so my job as a policy analyst would be to go in and see how we could be included, what's happening with this review, and to see like, you know, any possible changes or to make sure that our voice was at a table too, to make positive recommendations. Yeah, so that's kind of a very quick summary of my work I did there.

Daniel Bennett

That's really cool. So, what were the recommendations for including the Jay Treaty in that?

Natasha George

Yeah, okay, well the Senate Committee themselves, they had a big trial, well, not trial, like, they invited different First Nations people to come in and talk and give their testimony. So that commenced, when I was working, because they just called out for both to come and participate. So, basically, what happened with that is that nothing changed. There were people who were there First Nations voices to kind of like, advocate to maintain the Jay Treaty rights, because the issues with the Jay Treaty, because people in Canada, who are born First Nations in Canada, can travel into the United States. So, the United States will actually accept our Native Status. But the Canadian government won't honour First Nations people born in America to come into Canada. So that's the issue. So, what we're trying to do is basically include our families in America to be able to come to Canada freely. So, nothing changed. That was the result. That often happens in politics, you know, we want to be included, we want to be, you know, a part of policy making and decision making, but oftentimes, our voice is not heard. It's just like, you know, they're just going through this because they want to, you know, check the boxes--consulted First Nations people? We did that. But it doesn't mean that they necessarily have to include what we suggest going forward.

Daniel Bennett

How do we get the government to listen more, I guess?

Natasha George

Well, that's a really good question, Daniel. And if you know, the answer, let me know. Just joking. Well, you know, First Nations people have been advocating for their rights and like, you know, to be included in policy, since, you know, since contact, and it hasn't happened yet. And there's like, a lot of really strong First Nations leadership, who are in there, but still, nothing wants to change. How I think they can change it? I think the Canadian government actually has to have leadership that follows through with what they promise they're going to follow through with. And if they don't, there's to be some kind of like, repercussions for you know, making, you know, saying things that they don't follow through in, and so, it's, really frustrating. That's the thing when I was working, it was really frustrating, because a lot of the work we did was so important, and it took such great effort to do it. But it went nowhere. Because government wasn't willing to accept our, you know, our, input, because it would also interfere with, you know, many different things that they had to consider.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah.

Natasha George

So here we are at a little crossroads here.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah. I love when I'm biking down this path, and I always get tripped up which way to go on this point. But should we take a left?

A sign commemorating part of London's cycling history: George Wenige and the Red Bird Bicycle Picnics (1910-1950)

Natasha George

Yes.

Daniel Bennett

Let's take a left. And thank you, thank you for bringing me during this time of day. I love the way the light cascades through the trees. It's so beautiful.

Daniel Bennett

Natasha George

Yes. And as you look up here, you can see some of the trees have started to change. And the smell of fall is in the air. Can you smell it? I love it.

Daniel Bennett

I know. Favourite season?

Natasha George

Oh, I love all seasons, I can't choose.

Daniel Bennett

Okay, that's fair. Fall is my favourite. I love layering, I love doing all that.

Natasha George

Not me. I Just like to have a bathing suit on all the time.

Daniel Bennett

So why don't you tell me a little bit about where you're working now?

Natasha George

Well, right now, because I'm working from home because of this whole COVID thing. So most recently, I do research, and I'm working for an organization. It's IPAA--so Indigenous Performing Arts Alliance. Yeah, so I've just been working with them doing a little bit of research and organization for their files. Yeah, it's a really great organization. And basically, what they do is they are an organization that helps other arts First Nations or Indigenous arts organizations, throughout Canada and United States. And how they help them is they, you know, advocate for different grants, and they're kind of like a hub for information for arts organizations.

Daniel Bennett

You know, there is a really vibrant, First Nations arts community. And then there's also a settler or colonial arts community as well. How do you think we can integrate those more than they are now? Or should they be integrated?

Natasha George

That's a very good question. I have my own response to that question. But I think the best response right now would be, there's a lot of people, and a lot of specific individuals and organizations that actually provide that kind of service that can, you know, really help you integrate or decolonize specific arts organizations. So, for the Grand, for example, I would suggest to them to reach out to one of those organizations or individuals to kind of, you know, help the Grand, you know, decolonize, or integrate, or whatever. So, that's my, that's my answer for that. But my own personal response would be, I think, the idea of integration, it shouldn't even be an idea of integration, because we shouldn't be so separate. You know, we should be like a united group of artists going forward in the world. So, you know, when you integrate it, just like, because we haven't been included, and there's no equality, and sharing our ideas and thoughts in the beautiful things that we create as artists, you know, it should have already existed.

Daniel Bennett

Mm hmm, the semantics there are important. It's not, yeah, it's not integration, how can we just be of one?

Natasha George

Yeah.

Daniel Bennett

One person or one, one? Yeah. How can we create an environment where everyone is heard?

Natasha George

Yes.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah. So, I love, I just love that London has these like outdoor pavilions scattered throughout, the city. So, this is the Guy Lombardo pavilion. You see this beautiful space--what do you think should be programmed here?

The Wonderland Gardens bandshell at the Guy Lombardo Pavilion

Natasha George

I think I can see a lot of things happening here. I can see some, okay, at nighttime, we can see like, a beautiful band playing and people coming out and doing the Salsa. During the daytime, we can have some kind of storybook telling with the kids. We can see some like, you know, live dance or theatre even happening within the space. Yeah, especially too like, you know, we want to include different age demographics, to be included in arts and to grow, you know, really fond of the arts, and also too to be part of nature and to be part of the collective of London.

The Guy Lombardo Pavilion

Daniel Bennett

Mm hmm. I like that a lot. When I was on my bike ride in, I saw a group of people doing a fitness class in this pavilion and so I've, I've loved the migration to outdoor exercise during the pandemic.

Natasha George

Yeah, it's great.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah.

Natasha George

And this, little building here, actually, there's an older gentleman who sells ice cream and like sandwiches and things. So, I used to bring my kids down here and get an ice cream and we like walk along the trail and enjoy the ice cream and this, like beautiful and the beautiful surroundings. Great.

Seating area in the park

Daniel Bennett

Awesome. Well, let's continue on the path here.

Natasha George

Okay.

Daniel Bennett

So, you've been to the Grand Theatre. How many shows have you seen at the Grand?

Natasha George

I've probably seen about fifteen shows at the Grand.

Daniel Bennett

Fifteen? Wow!

Natasha George

I've been going to the Grand for probably at least six years.

Daniel Bennett

Okay.

Natasha George

I love theatre.

Daniel Bennett

And what's your favourite show you've seen so far?

Natasha George

Oh, that's tough. I think my number one favourite show was, I think it was called Penelope?

Daniel Bennett

Oh, The Penelopiad?

Natasha George

Yeah, that's one of my favourite shows I've seen.

Daniel Bennett

That was really good.

Natasha George

Yeah.

Daniel Bennett

Um, I want to talk about your experience entering the building. Do you feel that you're welcome, as you enter the Grand Theatre?

Natasha George

No. Um, because when you go to the Grand Theatre, like I'm a First Nations woman, I'm very tall. I'm very, I go into a room and I stand out a lot. So, when I go into the Grand Theatre, everyone just stares at me. I don't know what it is. But the demographics there, it's a specific. There's like older middle-class/ upper people who go to the Grand and enjoy the beautiful shows. So, when I enter the building, I just, I'm just stared at, and then I go to my line and I just hurry up and as fast as I can get to my seat, so I'm not the like, I'm not being stared at or like, you know, paraded around or whatever. Yeah.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah, so you're touching on visibility here, and myself as a biracial man, depending on what community I'm in, in London, I feel more or less visible. How do you navigate visibility on your day-to-day basis?

Daniel and Natasha walk past a sign marking the Terry Fox Parkway

Natasha George

Okay, well, actually, I think it's an adaptation that like, how I navigated myself personally, is I've adapted to like a survival mode. Because I'm a woman, because I'm young, and I'm very tall, I stand out a lot. So, over the years, you know, even being sexualized as a woman, you kind of like, you know, adapt in different ways. And how I do that is, I basically, I stare straight ahead, when I'm in a group of people. I don't look around, I don't like say, try to say hi, but when I do no one's even looking anyways, or they just like, look at me and like, look at me up and down, and like, you know, something like that. And so, I just try to block it all out, because I'm just, I've just seen it so often in my life.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah, you almost get, you almost get used to it.

Natasha George

Yeah. It becomes normalized, and you just become totally desensitized by that sort of thing.

Daniel Bennett

Mm hmm. And so, as a parent, how do you go about teaching that adaptation to your children? Or, how do you? Yeah, how do you tackle that?

Natasha George

Well, that's an excellent question. Well, for myself, I'm a very engaged parent. So, my oldest daughter is very, very brilliant. So, for myself, teaching my daughter, I have taught her right, from a young age, the truth about things. Like, you know, about standing up for Oh, Canada, and we are not Canadian, you are Anishinaabe. That's what I have taught her, so like when she's, she's actually seen that with her own eyes, like, I'll just give you a really quick example. We're at an event here in London, a kid event, and all the other children were up there like looking at the display, because it's like a little display. And so, my daughter goes up and she grabs it and she was like looking at something and lady comes over and grabs, rips it out of her hand. And she's like, "don't touch that." And this is my kid who was like four, and the other kids were still allowed to play with it... what's happening? And she comes over and she's like, "Mom, why did that happen?" I'm just like, so I had to tell her like, you know, some people don't treat people who are different equally. And so, she's like, "but why?" I said, "well, is there any differences here that you see?" And my daughter's very, like, has beautiful brown skin, and she's like, "is it because my skin's browner?" I said, "that's probably why." And at four years old I had to explain what racism was to my daughter. So, I try my best to, like teach her about the ignorance of some people and the lack of understanding. I call people like that little brother or little sister because in our culture, they're the last ones made in creation, so they don't know any better. They're still like really, they're still learning, and so sometimes we have to teach them which is unfortunate, because we shouldn't have to. But that's just, that's just how it goes. So, for my children, I just had to tell them straight up, this is how the world works, and, you know, you have to be proud of yourself and you need to be strong and you keep going forward.

Daniel Bennett

Mm hmm. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. It's always so hard to hear stories of how people are stereotyped on their day-to-day basis.

4km marker along the path

Natasha George

Yeah.

Daniel Bennett

Um, how do you give back to your community?

Natasha George

Well, I give back by, just by being here, 'cause I'm just fantastic. Just joking! I think you mean how do I volunteer in the community? And I volunteer well, in London, I basically I just go and participate. That's how I involve myself in London. But outside of London, my community, Kettle Point First Nation, I volunteer. I coach baseball for little young’uns. I volunteer at different specific cultural events. Yeah, I just, I do whatever I can, whenever someone needs help. We cook in the kitchen, we make food, like you know what I mean? I just, I do love and enjoy helping others.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah. What is your favourite cultural event that you help out with?

Natasha George

Well, my favourite cultural event. I actually, I help with the Kettle Point Powwow, and if you've ever been to a Powwow, you understand that a lot of people, like a lot of First Nations people from all over the place, they come and they gather. And oftentimes, people who dance, they come and dance with the people in their categories. There's several different dancing categories that show up for the Powwow, and so like, you know, there's a big drum, they play music, and people are able to dance and eat lots of great food, and buy beautiful, gorgeous jewelry, like thing I'm wearing right now. I bought this at the Powwow from Lacie George, who's the talented, brilliant artist. So, yeah, so it's a great opportunity, and outside communities are welcome to come and enjoy and participate within that cultural event. So, within that I actually I was a volunteer coordinator. So, I would, you know, rally up a lot of the high school kids to come to the Powwow and, you know, make sure it's functioning in a smooth kind of way, like, you know, like security, or gate people who collect money for admission, and things like that. Yeah.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah.

Natasha George

Yeah so it was fun.

Daniel Bennett

Can you tell me a little bit about what to expect at a Powwow?

Natasha George

Okay, well, if you go to a Powwow, you go and it usually costs admission. So, it's like $6, and not too much. You go in, and there's usually a big huge, like, an arena, and it's usually shaped in a circle. So, for First Nations people, especially because I'm Anishinaabe, I'm Ojibway, so we always go clockwise, because that's how creation moves. So, in something like that, we, the dancers always go clockwise. And within that circle, in the middle of circle, there's drummers. The drummers, they represent the heartbeat, the heartbeat of our people, the heartbeat of, Mother Earth, and the dancers, they dance to the drum. And so, yeah, so everyone, there's like different categories, so sometimes they'll call out like, the jingle dress dancers, which my daughter she's a jingle dress dancer, and she will go and she will, she'll dance with the people who are all jingle dress dancers. And sometimes there's competition, sometimes there's not. And yeah, so people can come and they gather along outside, they watch dancers, they could go and eat food, or buy some kind of craft item. Yeah, so basically just wander around and have a great time and eat and enjoy.

Daniel Bennett

Let's do a 180 and start heading back from whence we came unless you have a place you want to go that way.

A close-up of some leaves in the park

Natasha George

No, let's go.

Daniel Bennett

Great. Where do you think London has the most room to grow?

Natasha George

Well, I think because like, I'm not a really big fan of London, I think the best thing for London to do is to kind of like re-establish themselves in being community-centred, like I said earlier. Because if we become more of a community together, it will cause a ripple effect that we'll be able to, like, you know, improve the city, across all sorts of different things. Crime and homelessness and all kinds of things like that in London.

Daniel Bennett

So, I'm always curious as a theatre creator, how do we…we always have this conversation around, how do we diversify audiences? And how do we, so we've talked about how do we welcome people who may not have experience coming to the theatre, into our space? Can you provide, in your opinion, what would make you feel more welcome?

Natasha George

Well, I think you kind of nailed it with the first portion of your question by including more people actually experiencing the theatre. So, for myself, because I was a student. for many years, I didn't have a lot of money, right? So, for me to go with theatre, I had to have really crappy seats, or, like, you know, I'd be able to only see one show a season. So, one thing is that you have to make the tickets a little bit more affordable for people. Like not only young people, but like, if my mother, when I was growing up, because of six kids, we were very poor. We couldn't afford to go to the theatre, we could barely go to the movies. So, to make like experiences like that where different, different groups can actually come and experience it, and they're not limited by their economic reality.

Yeah, so basically, I think that would make it really great if people, more people could afford to go, if it's affordable. And I think too, because the theatre itself has grown to this thing where it's exclusive, because of the cost. And so, a lot of people don't even know about the theatre, like you know, they've never experienced going to the theatre because it's a foreign idea because it's so expensive. So, to make a new norm for people to be able to come to experience the theatre, you have to like you know, like let's just say you go to a school in a poor town, say, okay, we're going make a show for all these kids to come to experience a theatre. So that can kind of grow like a little, a little spark within their heart and be like, you know what, I love this. I want to go again, I will tell my mom about it, I'll tell my dad about it like, you know, just providing access.

Daniel Bennett

Mm hmm. Yeah. No, it's really good, it's a really great point. Can you talk about your experience coming to the theatre to see Honour Beat?

Natasha George

Yeah, it was, it was a great show. I enjoyed it. When I went there, that's the first time I've ever seen another First Nations person, in a theatre ever, oh at the Grand anyways. It was really, like, it touched my heart so much, because, like, the show itself, we were able to connect with it. And like I could hear like, people laughing at specific, First Nation-specific jokes. And it was funny, because like, "oh my gosh, I get it," it 'cause like, you know, it just felt like really awesome to be experiencing that with other First Nations people. It was so it was like, that made me more happy than the show itself, sometimes it felt like. But yeah, it made me extremely happy knowing that there was an Indigenous play, an Indigenous director. And, yeah, so it was, it gave me great pride to see that the, to see and experience that in the City of London.

Daniel Bennett

You know, that's really that's really great to hear. So, we'll just keep left at the fork here. If you had one thing to say to a young First Nations person living in the city of London, what would that be?

Woodland Restoration Project sign on a fence along the path

Natasha George

If this person is coming straight from the Reserve, to the city, I would tell them that they're not alone, that there's other people here. And you know, it's okay to be afraid. It's okay to go and try new things. And, you know, reach out and, make some new friends and enjoy the experience in the city. That's the type of people coming fresh off the Reserve, to London. Because for myself, when I first left, like, when I moved to Windsor, it was a really big city, and I was scared. And I'm like, you know, it's a culture shock. It really is. You're just like, "oh my gosh, like this is, this is so not welcoming. And it this is so strange, and it's so busy, it's so loud. I can't sleep, like it's a really big culture shock." So, I think First Nations people when they come to the city, you know, it's really nice to have that assurance that other people are there. Other Natives are there and stuff. Like even just seeing like a Native and just like, wave to them. And you're like, yes, right on man, I'm okay. Do you know what I mean?

Daniel Bennett

Oh, totally, I always do the gay nod all the time, like I see you. Can you tell me a story about something you've experienced on this path that we're walking?

Natasha George

Sure, I can. Well, like I said I take my kids here all the time. So, they're biking, or walking or climbing, or whatever. When the pandemic first began, the lockdown happened, I have a two-year-old. And she's like a very, very energetic, very wild child. I love her. So, but we couldn't go to the parks, we couldn't go to anywhere public. So oftentimes, you had to come to this space, and like, you know, so she can waste her energy and run around. So, we were always here during the beginning of pandemic. And we'd walk along, and, you know, "kids don't go near that person," like, you know, this or that. But anyways, one time we're walking along here, and my kids, they love dogs. Every time they see a dog, "Mom, look at that dog, I love it," and they want to pet it. So anyways, we're walking up this trail, and a lady was coming along with her dog. And I can see that little dog, this little miniature dog was wearing a service dog vest. So, my baby ran over to the dog during the pandemic, like oh my gosh, like, stop, but I didn't want to yell it out. And she goes over and starts petting the dog. And then my other older daughter ran over, and she's like talking to the lady. And as they walked up, I could see the lady was so happy, and in her eyes that we were actually engaging with her. And my, daughter's like, "is that your service dog?" and she's like, "yeah, she's my service dog, you know, she really helps me out." So just making assumptions that was probably an emotional service dog for this lady. But the amount of gratitude I saw in her eyes just from that one small interaction was like, so powerful, like, you know, just, you know, interactions and becoming more of a community, just by stopping and petting a dog and talking with this lady who was obviously very, very lonely. It was it was quite an experience. And that happened on this trail.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah, it's super powerful, and it reminds us you know, that we are social creatures and we are designed to take care of each other. And being so isolated during the pandemic has been hard for a lot of us. What have you been thinking most about during the pandemic?

Natasha George

Well, um, well, as I said, I have kids, so I had to work from home, I had to homeschool. I have a toddler who is absolutely wild. So, I was even more busy during the pandemic than ever before, because my house is just basically trashed. So, when I actually had a moment to stop and think I would, I was thinking about how the pandemic is a really excellent opportunity for us as human beings to kind of reconsider how we live our lives. Reconsider how we are, what's a necessity, and, you know, what's not. Like, you know, our lifestyle of being mass consumers isn't a necessity. That's not the things we need. We don't need a whole bunch of toilet paper. We need food, sustainable food. And so also on top, going with that, it also made me think about how people we take for granted the food that we have. We take for granted the workers who provide that food, or who likes, even the cashiers who, like, bring us out to buy this food. Like there's such an under value for these essential jobs that we are not considering. So that's basically what's thinking about.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah. And so, if there, so what have you, has there been anything you've cut out of your life, since thinking about what's a necessity and what's not?

Natasha George

Yeah, well, I've cut out buying anything that is brand new. So, like, you know, I do a lot of shopping at secondhand stores and stuff. So, I made a commitment. I'm like, no more, it's not necessity to have like this humongous closet full of clothes. I can go to the Goodwill and buy it, or I can buy it on Kijiji or something like that. Like, so I'm trying to change the way my consumerism is affecting my house and my, you know, my own state, my own healthy state of mind.

Daniel Bennett

Mm hmm. Yeah, that's really great. And in that, there's like the second-hand component. And there's also if you are going to buy new, buy local, and support people who are in here in the community.

Natasha George

Yeah, that's right.

Daniel Bennett

Mm hmm. And I was watching the Social Dilemma last night. I don't know, have you seen it?

Natasha George

I haven't.

Daniel Bennett

It's on Netflix. And a lot of it is talking about how these companies such as like Facebook, and, so on, are essentially selling our attention and selling our attention to big business to promote things to us so that we can buy things.

Natasha George

Yeah. And you know, I'm sure it's worked for a lot of people. I see those ads too, and I'm like, you know what? Maybe, and I'm like, oh, yeah, I can't be buying anything anymore.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah. I just love when you're walking through the forest like this, and you see, like, the remnants of things in the past, like trees that once stood on the ground. And...

A pathway leading to a picnic table

Natasha George

Yeah, that's great. Well, actually, we're just passing an area. Okay. So along this little ridge there, if you walk and explore into the woods here, you'll actually find the remnants of an old bridge. And there was an old fountain also, that was in there, it's like an old like, I don't know, it's an old fountain anyways, and an old bridge. So, when was that created? I don't know.

Daniel Bennett

Cool. That's what, I love the layering of the past and the present, that you can often see.

Natasha George

Well, just the interesting thing about this trail too actually, if you keep walking the direction we just came from, because we turned around and now we're heading back to Civic Gardens, but there's a bridge and that bridge there, it's under, we go under Wonderland Road. But if you go along, and you look to the right, there's this old, like, huge walkway, and it's an old-fashioned staircase there. And if you walk up there it leads into the cemetery. But I was thinking, like, you know, just walking along here, I was like, why is this here? Like, was this actually an old, you know, an old road? Because why would that this grand you know, display of the cemetery be here in the middle of the bush on a footpath. So, I bet you it was an old roadway.

Stone-lined steps

Daniel Bennett

Mm hmm. That's super cool.

Natasha George

Daniel, if we like, really focus our attention on this exact moment, you can really like you know, awaken our senses by like, the smell. You can smell that fall's in the air. You can literally feel on your skin, other water's near, you can smell the water. It's like when you're actually present with nature, you can you can learn so much like about ourselves, and how every single small creature or plant can teach us something.

Daniel Bennett

Mm hmm.

Natasha George

That's fantastic.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah, it's really great. Like there's so, I find so many people move through life without taking the time to observe the light or the sounds that are around them that make up their everyday world and...

Natasha George

Yes, actually listen to them, it's like so beautiful. Like just the simple sounds are like, you're saying too like the light coming through the specific trees. Like, you know, the different hues of all the creation like, look over here, you can see these colours over here. Like really bold green right there.

Daniel, Natasha, and Jen walk on the path

Daniel Bennett

Oh, yeah.

Natasha George

Like you know that right there is true beauty.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah.

Natasha George

And it's not even manmade. It's just perfect.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah. That's awesome. Thank you. Oh, and like, just the way that sun is like creating those small rays like right through there, like, so gorgeous. Yeah, well, it's like, yeah, everything really, like, it's funny, when I think about interior design, too, which is obviously not natural, but like, some people don't tune into, like, the space we create impacts us, and it's like subconsciously. Like, the colour of the wall, if it's warmer, the environment feels warmer, if it's colder, it's, more austere, it doesn't feel as nice.

Natasha George

Yeah, well totally, we've become so detached from like, the natural state and our like, you know, even how, like something feels in your skin. Like, you know what I mean? Like, we just are so numb to like, all these really small details.

Daniel Bennett

Mm hmm.

Natasha George

It's just, it's great to like, you know, become aware.

Daniel Bennett

Mm hmm.

Natasha George

Like I said, too I lost my hearing in one of my ears so I lost the ability to hear in one ear. And you really take things for granted, like, you know, to be able to hear things clearly, or like, you know, just like walking on the snow. I can't really hear that anymore. It's like, we have to be grateful for the things that we have.

Daniel Bennett

That a little bit of community there. Yeah, a little nod. That's nice. I do find I found during the pandemic, all of a sudden, people were more amenable to...

Natasha George

Interaction?

Daniel Bennett

Interaction, all of a sudden. It's like we, you know, in the rat race of everyday life, we are on our phones, we're in this attention economy, and as soon as we can't interact with other people...

Natasha George

Like you want to!

Daniel Bennett

You want to yeah, you just realize all of a sudden that, uh..

Natasha George

Well, interaction is actually a cool thing and like, well, even just touching somebody. Like you know what I mean, like talking to somebody is something but like, actually having like physical contact, because I'm a very like, touchy person. Like my nephews are like, you know, older, but I always have to go and like, put my hand on them. But like, you know, like, holy. You notice things about yourself, like, oh, I can't touch people as much.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah.

Natasha George

And it sounds weird, but like...

Daniel Bennett

No, I'm a hugger. Now I'm like, what do you mean I can't hug people? It's true and I'm like, I would say like, I didn't hug anyone for, because I was living alone, for a good like, three or four months, and I felt deprived.

Natasha George

Aww.

Daniel Bennett

Yeah. It's like, if you, if you hug someone for, I think it's eight seconds, your body actually releases oxytocin, which is a calming, a calming...

Natasha George

Chemical?

Daniel Bennett

Chemical. Yeah, so it's like, yeah, it's like, I've been deprived of my calming chemical. Is there anything else that you feel like you want to say to London, Ontario?

Natasha George

Um, I'd say stop being so snotty London, we're not, like the centre of the universe. And, you know, love your neighbours, you know, embrace each other, and, you know, we could make it great together.

A gazebo in the park

Daniel Bennett

Thanks for coming on a Grand walk with me. I really enjoyed Natasha’s candor and appreciate opening conversations around the need for more connection in this city. Listening to her speak about the need for visible minorities to adapt in predominantly white spaces, I am reminded of the concept of minority stress which posits that marginalized groups experience additional stress because of the prejudice and discrimination they face. It is distinguished from regular stress because it is unique, chronic and socially based. It highlights the continued need for education to alleviate prejudice and ensure spaces are safe for all.

The Grand walks would not be possible without our lovely team here at the Grand including Dennis Garnhum, Deb Harvey, Lauren Rebelo, Jen Matthews, Aaron Ouellette, Suzanne Lanthier, Lyndee Hansen, Britt Duncan, Lacie George and Megan Watson. Special thanks to Rob Novakovic and Frank Donato for brainstorming with me. Thanks again and looking forward to getting some more steps in with you soon.